Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby chris-uk on Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:37 pm
I never meant that waveskis eolved because of kayaks, that WOULD be a dumb thing to claim!!! I meant that I enjoy being involved in progressing a form of surfing that is nowhere near the others, and that waveskis are where they are now because guys like me were doing this for waveskis back in the 60s and 70s.
I have had input from guys who shaped for and with Christo and Mick Petrie back in the day, and I remember watching an old vhs of Christo at Sunset in the 80s. I'll never surf at their level because of the limitations my disabilities and work put on me, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying developing kayak surfing the way they enjoyed devloping waveskiing.
Anyhow, I'm hoping to get involved with a couple of local waveskiiers when my fitness is back to where it should be so that I can look at tow surfing, something I doubt will EVER be done in a kayak...
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby Bernie Inakayak on Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:45 pm
chris-uk wrote: tow surfing, something I doubt will EVER be done in a kayak...
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby BoaterJH on Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:47 pm
I think it could be done in smaller surf but I think it would be very hard in bigger surf due to the need to be rescued quickly between waves.
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby chud on Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:24 pm
I was looking for a video of some people using a homemade tow sled to carry a playboat up to speed to get big bounces on flatwater but found this video of vince shay experimenting with towing instead.
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby chris-uk on Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:11 am
These guys have hit the nail on the head; you can tow a kayak, no worries, but you will never tow a kayak into big surf unless you have a death wish. The human body simply won't be able to withstand the wipeout. I broke my ribs against my cockpit rim after a wipeout in solid, barreling 4ft surf at a notoriously heavy Penwith break. I wouldn't even dream of risking towing into Mavs or Teahupoo; you have to survive the wipeout to even stand a chance of being rescued, and as these guys all pointed out the rescue in a kayak by a ski is going to be extremely difficult.
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby harrysk on Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:15 pm
Sorry Peter, I'm not joking.
Peter Holgate wrote: A surf kayak has a surfboard hull, it will be as fast as a surfboard!
There are considerable differences between well designed surfkayak and surfboard hulls. The main one is that surfkayaks have to have (and do have) a lot more rocker than surfboards as the rider cannot shift their weight as much as on a board. It is accepted surfboard design theory that flat hulls have more speed.
Hull shape is not the only factor that affects speed. Rail shape is the next most obvious thing to consider. Again, accepted design theory tells us that thinner rails cause less drag and allow more speed. Surfkayaks have to have much thicker rails than surfboards and waveskis and so, go slower as a consequence. A kayak with thin rails will go fast in good steep surf but as soon as a little speed is lost the low volume rails sink into the wave and the deck sidewalls hit the water causing a considreable ammount of drag and killing any remaining speed.
Peter Holgate wrote: However it also starts to plane on a wave sooner because of the paddle and lack of drag, so a surfboard has to work harder to attain and retain the speed.
A surfcraft with a large hull area will come onto the plane sooner than one with less area, however when planning the more wetted surface area the craft has the less it's top speed will be. Surfkayaks are generally wider, longer and have thicker rails than surfboards and waveskis. It's true they may be paddled faster on flat water and may plane sooner than short boards and skis (evidenced by being able to take off on gently sloping, unbroken waves) but they certainly have much more drag and cannot obtain the same planeing speed as boards and skis. Even comparing like with like (say 8' board and kayak) the kayak will have more rail area, likely have more hull area due to planshape and be considerably heavier, all adversly affecting speed.
Peter Holgate wrote: The thing is that a surfkayak will retain momentum after an "extreme" move because of the paddle input. A surfboard needs to generate more power or just stall.
Performing a manoeuver which slows you down and then paddling back up to speed again is not retaining momentum. To maintain momentum there would have to be no loss of speed throughout the maneouver.
Also, this says nothing about the relative speed of a surfkayak, waveski or board as it drops down or tracks along the wave. All you're saying here is that after losing speed having a paddle can help you accelerate again. This is true but "good" functional surfing should not require this. Manoeuvers that kill speed are performed for a reason, mainly to drop you back down into the power pocket where the wave will provide all the power you need to generate speed.
Peter Holgate wrote: What I meant was a stock 7ft board will have the same speed as a 7ft surf boat because the hulls are almost the same. Granted if you are a top pro and you get your shaper to make a one of super board that will break within an hour it will be quick - The thing is we all have to paddle the "average" shape boat because there are no hand shapers prepared to do it or paddlers really willing to pay.
As already stated, there are considerable differences between similar sizes board and boat hulls. Those differences are there for a reason. They are compromises made to make the kayak a practical craft to paddle and surf. Even a top shaper will have to allow for these factors and will not be able to produce a surfable boat with the same performace as a board or ski.
Peter Holgate wrote: That argument falls down when it comes to a Longboard that has a long rail and can't carve
Hmmm, what an odd thing to say, especially when followed by:
Peter Holgate wrote: However, I to would like a Surfkayak with surfboard rails ... so the boat would carve better
Peter Holgate wrote: ...At least in the front an middle section. I just thought that I wanted that so the boat would carve better and be able to use less fin if conditions prevailed.
Why just the front and middle section? If you want extra rail to compensate for less fin surly this rail would have to be near where the fins are?
Peter Holgate wrote: My point in all this is that it's difficult to judge the attained speed as there is no like for like in weight, shape length etc
There is no like for like because why would you want to make a board the same weight, shape, length etc as a kayak? That would just slow it down and make it less manoeuvrable.
Peter Holgate wrote: I am also sure that if Kelly Slater on a 7ft board and I both took off together and dropped in a straight line down a 4ft wave the speed at the bottom would be pretty close.
Yes, the speeds might be close for this situation, but it wouldn't be down to paddling power and Kelly Slater would be ripping the top of the wave before you were half way round your bottom turn.
Peter Holgate wrote: What would happen if we both had to generate speed from wave momentum would be a different matter and much harder to measure what's being created by the surfer and the board/boat.
A lot of your reasoning seems to be based on the ability to add speed with the paddle. When planeing fast it's impossible to paddle quickly enough to add speed and any attempt to do so would surely result in slowing the boat down. Also consider that when going fast surfboarders can add speed (when we can't) by bending their legs and then extending them exerting extra force through the bigger fins that they use adding drive through turns. With a higher centre of gravity surfboarders can also leverage more force through their fins and rail too.
Peter Holgate wrote: Boards are no faster but they feel it because when you stand up you get the full force of the wind and much more visual information to deal with .... and a much shorter ride to fit that experience into.
A Surfkayak keeps you close into the wave where there is possibly a cushion of air that moves with you and there is a bit less to see as you are lower down and the ride goes on longer so it seems less frenetic.
You know, being closer to the water gives a greater sensation of speed. You may think you are going faster in a kayak, but getting closed out on on waves that board surfers are making, should tell you that you are not.
Bernie Inakayak wrote: I'd like to hear some practical engineering reasons why a ski should be faster than a kayak in the first place. The kayak seems considerably more aerodynamic for one thing
It's all down to the deck. The extra shape and height required to enclose the legs, forces water to flow around it causing a major change in direction of the water. On a board and a ski this water can flow across the deck almost unhindered. When water is forced to change direction it has to exert an equal and opposite force on whatever is causing that change, it's this force that slows the kayak down.
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Plenty of good points there. It's the miscoceptions about kayak vs ski performance that gets me too. That's why I'm here posting this now. I don't care what anyone surfs as long as they are having fun, but I do care if people are being misled into believing that the kayak they are surfing is more "high performance" than a board or ski. That information could be holding them back and limiting their enjoyment in the long term.
I'd love to know where these misconceptions come from and how many kayakers believe them?
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby chris-uk on Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:19 pm
Great reply Harry, very well reasoned and probably spot on all the way through.
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby CaptainSensible on Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:52 pm
Am I correct about the potential for surf kayaks to have longer rides and use lower quality waves because of paddler input though?
I was watching some professional/competition board surfing on Transcentral Sports or whatever it is called last night (always get insomnia at xmas) and I'm wondering why I ever thought boats were faster (they were fast). I suspect it might be because most of the amateur boaties that I've watched for real or have seen videos of (like the chap I used to demonstrate what proper kayak surfing looked like on one of those rare occasions when w+e+t+f+o+o+t pays us a visit) are better at their discipline than your 'typical' board surfer.
The last I time I watched some of the surf kayak club locals do their stuff (one local lass is very good), there was one surfer (on his own) who seemed to know what he was doing in the bigger stuff (and where the sea was up to the sea wall) to the right of the break we were using , and an entire crowd of mostly useless folk not achieving much using the more gentle area to the left of our break.
Good amateur boardies might be more scarce than good amateur boaties? A plausible hypothesis as to why some people think surf boats are faster?
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby chris-uk on Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:02 pm
Paddler input doesn't have a lot to do with it after you've caught the wave, and even then you can pretty much assume that if you can ride it so can a longboard. Some shortboards may struggle in smaller surf, where a boat wouldn't have as much trouble, but speciality small-wave shortboards are just as capable as any boat in crappy surf.
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby harrysk on Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:08 pm
CaptainSensible wrote:Am I correct about the potential for surf kayaks to have longer rides and use lower quality waves because of paddler input though
Short board surfers can "pump" across weak or flat sections and longboards can surf on very weak waves. It's true that it might be easier for a paddlesurfer to paddle across flat or weak sections to a steeper part of the wave but it would have to be a really poor wave for them to have much of an advantage. Board choice also plays a part here with boardsurfers being able to choose something more suitable for the conditions. Most of the boardsurfers I know have kept the longboard or minimal they began on for these conditions as well as a more high performance board for better surf. If staying on the wave is a problem then Im not sure how much fun this type of surfing would be once you have reached a certain level of proficiency?
There could well be a beginner to early intermediate skill level for board and boat surfers where it's easier to stay on the wave in a kayak relatively speaking. Although, at this level, falling of the board is probably the biggest problem while kayakers are probably tring to get off the wave before it hits the beach.
Have to say I don't get much enjoyment from this type of wave and am spoiled with reasonable to excellent quality surf so don't often have to grovel about in small beach slop so not sure if I'm the best person to answer that question.
Thanks for the feedback on why you might have thought surfkayaks were faster. it makes sense if your area has a higher standard of kayak surfers than board surfers. I guess I've been lucky to be able to surf with both good board, ski and kayaksurfers from when I started paddling.
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby CaptainSensible on Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:37 pm
There are some extremely good surfers (and surk kayakers) based in Jersey; we have some decent breaks* too, but we also have loads and loads of wannabe Laird Hamiltons that are just a bit... well... crap, basically (I don't do surf anything, for the record).
*I don't think we have anything as consistent as whatever is required for a "world class" or heavily built up/developed (surf schools and huge shops etc.) surf spot like Newquay for example. International competitions are held here from time to time, but the surf often fails to turn up.
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby Peter Holgate on Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:41 am
Aaahh!
I see that as usual in my life I see that I am the only one who thinks the way I do.
Rather than unpick all of Harrys comments and go over the same old same old. What about arranging a get together. Bring a selection of surf craft each have some fun trying them all and see where we get to after a few post surf beers.
Some time in the spring - preferably Devon but anywhere accessible with waves will do:
I can bring a Neutron,Max,Scarab,Fantum all with thrusters and a 9ft Kbay Longboard single fin along with anything else I can blag of Malc Mega.
Chris,Harry, Splitskin and any of the others. Care to come along?
If so where is best and what will you bring?
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby Peter Holgate on Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:59 am
http://vimeo.com/2478474
This is well worth watching a bit of board,ski and kayak all beautifully done by Vince Shay
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby chris-uk on Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:06 am
I would do except that I can neither surf nor drink at the moment due to the massive amount of drugs I'm taking while waiting for knee surgery (though I'm hoping to avoid it...). I doubt Harry will make the journey from Ireland either...
One thing I realised we have overlooked is the physical construction of the board/boat. The X-tech boats are way faster than standard due to the reduction in hull flexing (less energy is wated bending the hull, thus more is available for generating speed), boards naturally have little flexure due to their solid 'I' beam construction (foam sandwich core, same as an x-tech boat). All the other points still apply though, especially the extra drag of a kayak due to increased width. Are your boats X-tech or standard?
Fins make a big difference to speed through the turns too, just ask Dave Speller who is now running one of my quad set-ups on a Neutron RV..! Thrusters are crap on a kayak.
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby Peter Holgate on Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:04 pm
Chris my Neutron and Fantum are both either Xtech or foam core which I fully agree is worth the extra bucks for speed. We both know there are all sorts of variable for this argument. I think that there are possibilities for Surfkayaks to get faster and faster . Look at what's happened to the design in the last 3 years.
What we really need to get the maximum out of every Kayak is to have one hand made for each individual to match perfect size,shape, weight, foot profile - rail shape. Like when a ski is made for you. When I think back to the Ski I had made 4 years ago the profile from the seat backwards was not to far off a Surfkayak's current shape. The hull was similar boats like the Merlin and Max now both have a v profile in the back 1/4 like my ski's. The real differences came from the rail and foot area. My Fantum was hand made to fit my feet and has very thin rails (Whole things thin).
So why not in a Surfkayak in the future. If you want to go halfs with me to have a ski or board shaper make a plug for Mega to make let me know.;¬|
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby chris-uk on Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:48 pm
You have any pics of your Fantum? Who made it?
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Re: Biggest wave ever surfed?
Postby harrysk on Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:11 pm
Hi Peter,
Thanks for the friendly invite. It's possible I may be over in Devon before Easter. I'll let you know.
I take it, though, that you are still holding on to your view that surfkayaks are faster than boards?
I'm sorry for being so hard on your opinions but I would hate any aspiring surfers (board, waveski or boat) to come away from this thread wrongly thinking that kayaks were faster. Understanding these concepts may help people surf better, believing the wrong thing could hold them back and waste their time and money.
Let me put it this way. It's not my opinion that boards are faster and more manoeuvrable than waveskis, which are in turn, faster and more manoeuvrable than kayaks. It's fact, accepted my many, many top level surfers, waveskiers, kayakers, waveski shapers and kayak manufacturers. Fact backed up by theory and countless practical examples and observations. But don't take my word for it, if you know Malcolm, why not ask him or maybe the shaper that made your waveski.
The video you posted only proves my point. Pretty much every wave shows surfkayaks struggling to turn up the wave and hardly breaking free of it when they get there. The biggest air, on one of the smallest waves, is by a board surfer (about a minute in).
Feel free to try an "unpick" my comments. I'd like to know why you think what you do.
I do agree that being able to order a custom shaped surfkayak would allow a major step forward in performance but they would cost a small fortune. There's another problem too. Not only does the deck slow a kayak down it also limits the size to something big and wide enough to paddle with out hanging your feet over the side for a rest, this limit on how small you can go is also a limit on performance.
Surfkayaks have developed over the last few years and can continue to do so but don't forget that board and ski development is taking place at the same time.
Boards will always be faster but that's not to say everyone should surf one.
Happy surfing,
Harry
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